Transcript - Episode 007 - The Ideal Phone Screen

Episode 007
The ideal phone screen. 

Given that these are the days of remote work, COVID19 and Zoom call overload, talking about a phone screen probably makes me sound old fashioned. For me, old habits die hard. I personally enjoy listening to a person without being distracted by their fashion choices or facial expressions.

Anyway, I'm about to break down what I have found to be my ideal phone screen, and why it works for me. I hope you can pull some hints, or the whole kit and kaboodle, from this that will work for you. We'll only go over part of the interview today, in keeping with Micro Learning, but I'll finish out the rest of this in a later episode. 

Hi. I'm Daava Mills, The Rebellious Recruiter. I started recruiting over 20 years ago, and it was ALL done on the phone. I've learned some things along the way about getting the candidate to open up right away. Today, we are going to go over some of this methodology.

Intro Music / Fade out

When I started recruiting, as a third party recruiter, it was imperative that I get a complete stranger to listen to a pitch, get them sold on the opportunity, and within a half hour know their work history, their life style, their hopes for their career, how much money they were currently making, and what challenges there could be if there was a move involved. It was expected that once they engaged with me, I had about 30 minutes to uncover this information. 

And here's the kicker… I did this all without seeing their resume. Went in blind and had to create trust both ways. Out of a hundred cold calls a day, the goal was to get two strangers to open up their life to me. 

Now a days, with online recruiting this dynamic has changed a lot. But the important parts stayed the same:

•               Get them interested in the job
•               Build rapport
•               Find out what their professional goals are
•               And determine if they are in the right salary range

Regardless of how I wind up on the phone with a person, I have a pretty standard format I follow for the first conversation. Remember how when I talked about recruiting is like fishing? The rod in this analogy is the interview process. 

Let's review the entire analogy here, we won't be covering all these today, but I'd like to reinforce them. 

Chum - Networking and your employment page
Bait - Job Ad
Line - the interview
Rod - the structure to your interview
Reel - the continued steps in the process
Farm - List of qualified people
Fish Food - Ongoing Communication
Hatchery - Your training ground

The rod. Just like when you fish, the part that is in your hand has no flexibility, that is how my phone screen are. No flexibility. This is where I establish the process and get to know enough to determine if a face to face interview is warranted. The face to face and subsequent interviews should be way more flexible allowing for strong conversation, and to see how the candidate zigs and zags, or runs, or just gets reeled up.

I've spent a career of having to look over resumes and try to read between the lines to see if someone has the right experience. And when in doubt, if I had the time, I'd call people to learn more about them. Sometimes, most the time, they weren't the right fit. But it was an opportunity to keep my skills sharp. And every once in a while, someone would come on the line that was a star performer, just with a wonky resume.

Over the years I noticed that candidates, at the end of the interview, almost always had the same questions:

What is a day in the life like?
How much does this pay?
What benefits do you offer?
What is the schedule?
Why do you like working here?

These are boring questions, safe questions, and the answers really don't satisfy the candidate burning curiosity. But any quick google of what to ask the interviewer, and these are usually the questions that are recommended. I believe that if a candidate has to ask these questions? You haven't sold the opportunity well enough to them. You see, recruiting, regardless of potential commission, it's sales. So, take let's flip the script.

First thing I would do is I would connect with the candidate and schedule a time for an interview. I don't like interviewing people on the spot, I like them to have time to prepare. That's increasingly important this day and age, because people are applying to several jobs a day sometimes, it's hard for them to keep track. So, let's give a little grace, and realize we aren't the only iron in their fire in most cases.

When I get on the call, the first thing I do is pitch the company. Sure, they've read the ad. But pitching the company again helps build excitement for the conversation. I want them excited about us, the company, as a product they want in their lives. I tell them about why the position is open, honestly and openly, I tell them exactly what the company does (in a sixth-grade level), I describe who the customers are, and why they work with us, and how we change customers businesses for the better. 

That's really important, remember that millennials - which is the largest segment of the workforce, by and large, want to work for a company that has a cause. I would give specific examples of how our customers found success using us. I'd talk about the quirks of the manager, or owner, and sometimes the short comings and challenges of the systems we were using. Explain how the department works, and position expectation. Again, that's so important, because no one wants to be sold on something, show up their first day and discover the issues. Ease them into it, let them feel the challenges they will be hired to solve. And let them know that we aren't perfect people. I'd much rather a person realize the culture isn't a fit for them, then get all the way to their first week and quit because it's all a surprise. Then I'd give them a run down on benefits. 

Do remember, a cause is not a group of people nicely dressed filling baggies for people in need. A cause can be helping other businesses succeed. That is a powerful selling tool. It allows your future employee understand the heart of your business, and where they fit. Charity work is great, but it doesn't create a first-person picture in their head of what they will be doing. 

This is the time to let your guard down as a company. In doing so, your candidate will let their guard down. 

Now here's the next crazy part. I wouldn't ask them questions; I'd tell them to ask me their questions. You see, I've already given them that snapshot, we've moved around the process, we showed vulnerability as a company, then we opened up the floor to them. You know why? This gives them room now to ask the real questions, the questions that maybe they have been told they shouldn't ask. The questions they are embarrassed to ask. Now, you are building their profile as an employee. You then learn what is important to them. As you learn what is important to them, you now know what in your opportunity to continue to sell to them through the interview process. 

Once I established that we answered their questions, I then started mine.

Tell me why you are looking? That's a standard question, right? Here's the issue with that… Most people won't tell you the entire truth as to why they are looking. They don't because we've had years of conditioning around getting the job. Applicants are told "don't talk bad about your current employer" and they are basically told to lie about why they are looking. Which is crazy. People don't look for work if they are perfectly happy at their job. 

Then employers turn them down for being honest about why they are unhappy. I'm glad to see the tide is slowly shifting, but it's not happening fast enough in my humble opinion. We're again, going to turn the truthful answer of this into a cultural exploration of your company and use it as a sales tool. 

Okay, back to the question, I ask them why they are looking. Then I ask them, a variety of questions… If they took the reason, they were looking for a new job off the table, what is one thing they would change about the company or their current position? Then I start asking about scenarios. I start getting the picture. I ask them about the straw that broke the camel’s back. When I get a full picture of why they are leaving, or have left? I've got a double benchmark. 

The first benchmark is I know what annoys them. Now I can use this first benchmark to identify if what they are running from, if it's in my environment. In Episode 000, I alluded to the fact that your weaknesses as a company can be your best recruiting asset. Here is one of the reasons. If your environment is like the environment they are fleeing, they are going to run from yours sooner, rather than later. Better to cut the line on this candidate now. 

The second benchmark is because recruiting is a sales tool. You can now create a conversation of what your company does that isn't like that, in the next interview. 

Now, you're going to rinse and repeat this line of questioning through every job for up to ten years or further if you want. What you want to do is take this time to find out if there is a common thread. I find common threads happen all the time, the more you do this, the more you will see that candidates are afraid of asking tough questions about your environment. It's not uncommon for candidates to make decision based on incomplete information, and then the employer feels the brunt of the cost of recruiting and training repeatedly. 

If you like this person and see common threads appear, talk to them about it. Acknowledge that "it seems like you've had a lot of broken promises or hidden facts became apparent at your last job. So, I am going to invite you to do something unusual. Between now and your next interview, I want you to craft the hardest most invasive questions you can think of to ask me about my business. No question is off the table." 

This is Daava talking again - not your fictional voice in your head, I mean that. No question is off the table. I've only once turned down an applicant once in this line of questioning, when they asked how old the CEO was. The CEO was brilliant, surrounded himself with brilliant people, and age had nothing to do with it. 

Now continue the interview.

"Describe for me professional nirvana." This question is a set up question, it allows the person to talk about the environment they truly desire. You'll discover many people haven't put thought into this, they approach their career like a pinball, being thrust directions by outside forces. However, they start thinking about the positive part of what they are looking for. It might have to do with the systems they are working it. It might have to do with the challenges they are dealing with. It might be the people. I've never had a person ask me about a ping pong table and free snacks. Gym memberships however have popped up.

This set up puts their mind in a good space. So now you're strategically building your picture of what type of culture this person will thrive in. And you nail it with the next questions…

"Describe for me professional hell."

One of two things generally happens, the more common is the person describes being inside micromanagement. When I've heard this as an answer, I ask them to describe for me what they think micromanagement is. I'll give you a hint, most people have no clue what micromanagement is. They think it's Friday check in calls, or Monday goal meetings. I use this as an opportunity to talk to them in plain language about what is really micromanagement. The good, the bad and the ugly. The good? It's a transitional management plan to get a person back on track. The bad? The manager has nothing better to do but get in your business. The ugly? They correct you while you're talking to your clients. Or worse, don't listen to why you do something, and make broad assumptions. I explain if the manager listens, and uses it to coach, it's not micromanagement, it's upping your game. Then I give real life experiences I've experienced. Candidates are often shocked and say… Oh! I didn't know that was micromanagement. That sounds horrible.  

The less common is that a person paints an awful picture. Know why? Because they lived it. They have escaped it. Maybe repeatedly. You need to look at these experiences truly and discover if it matches anything in your environment. If it does, you need to talk about this issue head on. Again, you need to give this person permission to ask you difficult questions. And believe me, most people don't ask hard core questions, they simply want to know what the weaknesses in your accounting system are, and the work arounds you put in place. Or how you dealt with a public OSHA safety violation. These types of questions? They are a great opportunity to sell (there's that word again) … SELL what you are doing to strengthen your environment, and how your people are important to you in the solution. 

And you know what? You get great conversation from that. Just like that rod in your hand, you've controlled the interview. And they experienced flexibility within their movements. 

Once we've established, they are a culture fit, I'll start diving deeper into their skills. Now, I called them because I could see they have most of the skills the company needs. From a recruiter perspective, recruiters are generalists. We don't know nuance, but we have an overview. I'll double check certifications, and skills not listed, team size, who they reported to, project values, if applicable metrics and performance reviews. But a deep skills dive? I leave that to the manager and possible team interviews. Again, just wrangling the horses with the right structure to the pen… I'll let someone else see if they're a barreller or a jumper.

Then I'll find out what salary they are shooting for. I ask them again about what questions they have. Now, I type out every question they ask. I can type almost as fast as people talk. But I find that it's important to review my notes. I've had far too many situations where key attributes and complaints were overlooked, then the person when hired surprised the managers with something that was totally foreshadowed in the interview notes. Yeah, they started reading them after that. Also, the questions. Sometimes candidates ask the same questions again, because they expect a different answer when talking to a manager or owner. Those candidates? Often don't get the job when that happens. 

So, notes, while legally, you should be taking them. They are a rich source of information, especially if you have issues after the person starts. I've looked back at my notes and can completely see where my assumptions took over or I missed vital hints as to a bad culture fit. Or worse, I once didn't dig on a candidate because the GM was in the room, and he was satisfied with the answer. I knew the candidate was not answering directly, but I allowed myself to be swayed by the GM's satisfaction. I'll never did that again. 

All these experiences? The good ones and the bad ones? That's what allowed me to develop this process where I would identify from reading the resume if the rudimentary skills are there, then do a deep dive culture interview, then let the team or the manager take it from there. 

So, my challenge for you. Look at your interview as a process of selling the company, the opportunity, the challenges, and who you are. Get the candidate excited about the change you bring to your client community. Watch what happens in the interviews and listen to how rich their questions become. 

As always, I’ll be bringing you knew information weekly. Be sure to subscribe wherever you are listening to this. Feel free to comment, rate, and review what you hear. Share this podcast with other leaders that may be building “out of this world teams.” You can email me with your thoughts or questions. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows. 

It’s great to meet you and thank you for listening. I know you only have so many hours in the week, and I am grateful to spend this time with you. Until then, make it a great day! See you on the flip side.